thoughts American apaches? - a growing unease at mixing politics with prayer

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Originally Posted by brightgoo

As a true Atheist, where do your morals come from? I know you have plenty, many morals, I have read enough of your comments to say that.

As a Christian my morals come from God, I mean The Sky Fairy. ( didnt want to lose you here :)

Because frankly your morals sound alot like Christian morals, and if so that would be subjective, right?

I'm trying to understand Atheism more. :)

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Good question, I get my morals from a rational consideration from the possible consequences of my actions, my culture and my upbringing. Its been bred into us from evolution, toddlers who cant even speak let alone know of jesus (or any other god etc) attempt to help , comfort other toddlers in pain and trouble. Animals do the same. I enjoy helping people, i have no need to inflict pain or suffering on others because this would make me sad that ive cause this on my fellow species.

The idea of morals without god is quite silly to be honest, its insulting too our species . morality has been thought out, reasoned , argued and discussed for thousands of years . Infact, most of todays morality seems completely contradictory of most religions (No slavery, Equal woman rights etc) all of these things are recent moral codes implemented to our societies. It seem secular morals has been dragging religions kicking and screaming into the moral world for thousands of years.

I ask religious people who ask this question, without fear of punishment from god... would you go around widely killing and raping people? if the only reason people dont rape and pillage is fear of punishment, then they are not very moral people to begin with.

Hitchens on morality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQcGXBo8HP8

Sixx I agree with your points totally. You are free to do as you wish in America to the fullest extent of the law. So there is where the rubber meets the road isnt it. Our laws and how they come to be. That is really what all this boils down to. You personally wish to have legal weed. Others may wish for that not to ever be true. I personally like beer and beer is currently legal but can cause you some loss of freedom if you are found driving while under the influence. So to that point some of you dont like religion or republicans because they stand for laws that go against your wishes or desires.

I dislike liberals because they want to implement laws or change America into a country more like Europe or another existing nation. America is truly unique for freedoms and things we have and mostly take for granted.

I really personally dont care if you smoke weed or even if you are involved in crime. That is each persons own choice and that person may live their entire life doing illegal drugs and committing crime without ever being arrested or even looked at by a cop.

As long as the drug user or criminal doesn't tread on me or my family I could give a shit what other people do. Now what I am talking about is laws that do tread on me. Laws that dont exist that are being put in place that are going to tread on me and or my family in the future. I cant help you get your legalization of pot and if I could become more involved in how laws are added or subtracted I would be looking at higher( no pun ...yes pun intended) priorities in the order of freedoms being removed or sidestepped.

I dont think as long as we have been a nation that Christians are enemy number one to most Americans. It honestly has been Christians are at the front of the line in keeping our freedoms in place. I dont feel like even spelling this out for some of you will help you understand but I do admit I will continue to type away here from time to time to see if I can say it so some way that will eventually be undertstood.

Religion is not your enemy even if your an atheist. What religious(Christian) president has ever attacked the atheist or non Christians in America?

I dont care about the founding fathers growing weed or smoking it. Yes it may have been acceptable then just like slavery was acceptable as well. Do you feel that we should still have slavery because that is a freedom we once had?

We as humans learn and try to advance ourselves to the benefit of all mankind. I think it is still legal to smoke cigarettes even though it has been proven to cause multiple health problems even cancer. Not to mention that cigarette companies treat their customers like lab mice by adding addictive chemicals to make you want to buy their shitty product until your dead or nearly dead.

Yes I drink beer and it isnt healthy in many ways for you and is dangerous if you try to drive while intoxicated. I am someone who is a very moderate beer drinker. I literally can count on one hand how many times I drink a beer in a month. If I drink more than a six pack in a months time it must be my birthday or the 4th of July or some other uncommon event.


@gazz your point about children learning while they are still not aware of God is true and untrue. There are many kids that get the shit beat out of them at that early age and they learn abuse and then pass it on to their offspring. So it is dependent upon if the parent or guardian is in right mind if that child learns evil or good. I would hazard a guess that statistically the chances of a child being raised in loving nurturing home goes way up when their parents are Christian than muslim or atheist. I have seen the muslims beat the shit out of their kids as well as their wives(plural).

One final thing that I will say as I need to go. Some of you reason that there is no God because how does God allow these horrible things to happen on earth. Well I myself have asked that question in my past. The reason that bad things happen are because this world is not meant to be ideal by God. It is earth a temporary point in our existence.

You have free will to do good or evil.


The Bible says love your enemy. It is difficult isnt it. It seems that it is in our nature to find fault and be negative towards others. I am guilty of being a jackass quite often. What good does it do and what is accomplished by it? Nothing.

((((I get my morals from a rational consideration from the possible consequences of my actions, my culture and my upbringing. Its been bred into us from evolution, toddlers who cant even speak let alone know of jesus (or any other god etc) attempt to help , comfort other toddlers in pain and trouble. Animals do the same. I enjoy helping people, i have no need to inflict pain or suffering on others because this would make me sad that ive cause this on my fellow species.

The idea of morals without god is quite silly to be honest, its insulting too our species . morality has been thought out, reasoned , argued and discussed for thousands of years . Infact, most of todays morality seems completely contradictory of most religions (No slavery, Equal woman rights etc) all of these things are recent moral codes implemented to our societies. It seem secular morals has been dragging religions kicking and screaming into the moral world for thousands of years.

I ask religious people who ask this question, without fear of punishment from god... would you go around widely killing and raping people? if the only reason people dont rape and pillage is fear of punishment, then they are not very moral people to begin with.[/QUOTE]))))))













So your morals sound as if they are subjective? So I truly don't understand your argument of how you can think that morality is a part of our evolution, there is no scientific evidence to support that. The only reason morals would purposefully be engrained in our DNA, would be because a Higher Being (Creator) put them there.

To me this makes your points of animals and toddlers, just more proof that there is a God.

Your first paragraph, as an Atheist, makes me see that its a good thing you were brought up in a good loveing family, and that your community/culture taught you well. Because otherwise, if you had grown up in a non-loveing family, and bad place to live you would be different. Maybe to the better or maybe to the worse. You are subjective to what ever environment you are raised in, is what I'm understanding from your statements.

So lets do a hypothetical on your first paragraph. What if there was a global economic meltdown, and anacrchy ensued. It became normal for people to rob each other at gun point for food. Would this be right or wrong? This would be a social norm, so as I understand an Aetheist would or wouldn't assign moral values to robbing people at gunpoint.
Who would you rather see at the end of a dark alley, while holding a bag full of groceries? A Christian, who has objective morals that come from God that says in no case, robbing people at gun point, for any reason, is right. Or an Atheist, who's subjective morals, tell him depending on the circumstance that robbing people, might or might not be right. Because remember, in this scenario it's a normal practice for people to do so.


Paragraph #2, sentence 1 - Again one could argue at least intelligent design with this sentence. Because are we engrained with morals just because of a fluke. Is there an alternate universe where empathy (as you are argueing) isn't the number one characteristic of species? sentence 3 - LOL Gazz, come on bud. I dont know how much time an Atheist sits around learning my religion, ... but ... I really dont understand what your trying to say? sentence 4 (last) - Thats sad, it seems that way to you. I'm sure you have many examples of atrocities done in the name of my religion. Everything can be used for good or evil, and bad people have used religion and the ignorance of followers to do bad things. ie; Crusades


3rd Paragraph - I would again point out that if morality is automatically engrained in all of us, then a architect or designer purposefully placed it there.

I appreciate you teaching me your beliefs, and I hope I can sensibly communicate some of mine. :)

We are all products of our environment, and too an extent everything is subjective."morality" at a basic level (not killing each other, empathy , caring for our own kind) are favored and "selected"by natural selection , group selection because it favors a population (survival of the fittest). Observed and noted here: According to Mic Shermer, the following characteristics are shared by humans and other social animals (apes, dolphins elephants etc)

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"attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, direc indirect reciprocity, altruism and reciprocal altruism, conflict resolution and peacema deception and deception detection, community concern and caring about what others about you, and awareness of and response to the social rules of the group".

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This is clearly observable, go to a zoo or watch a documentary on social animals. There is a reason social animals are the most successful. What we would call moral or good is observed in the natural environment constantly, the perfect example off the top of my head would be dogs. Today, a dog will happily die for you... thousand years ago he would have eaten you.

Your hypothetical doesn't make much sense to be honest. But eitherway, either choice would be a risk. Christians are not perfect, atheists are not perfect. Both kill, both rape,both steal. The atheist as a human , a social creature has just as much chance to cooperate with me than a Christian.

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then a architect or designer purposefully placed it there.

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The "architect" being natural selection, evolution, and out environment (upbringing, culture)

TL:DR morals are an evolutionary necessity for advanced societies.

A question, what does the bible say about rape, woman rights, slavery and homosexuality. Compare that to what advanced society says (or is striving for).

Interesting to say the least.


I will get back to you on why Jesus would only rape 1 woman a day, he thought any more would be excessive. I'll get those verses to you though since you show interest. :)

My point with the bible verses is, as far as I understand peoples view/attitude of the bible has changed. Isn't that the main defence when compared to Islam? that its been "modernized" , or that certain rules are outdated and not suitable for our time? Things like stoning people as punishment, working on the sabbath, slavery being okay, beating slaves , holy wars, wearing clothes with more than 1 material (or some weird rule) is wrong , equal women rights , homosexuality etc etc.

These have all been adapted to suit modern times by secular thinking outside of, and in most cases contradictory of the bible. Homosexuality being an obvious one, many societies deem homosexuality as normal and fine. This is a moral change that has happened outside of, and in clear contradiction of the bible. How is that possible if the bible is the source of morality?

I should not had assumed we were on "same page". I thought you were kidding around, trying to use old testament for your confutation, ... but I see your not.

OK here it goes, the King James Bible (probably most accepted and/or recognized translation) has a Old Testament and New Testament. Old Testament was translated from Hebrew to English, and New Testament was translated from Greek to English. All translated by a total of 47 scholars, not by "King James".

Yes, there are MANY wierd things done in Old Testament. My denomination has never used or even considered using the Old Testament as examples of what to do. LoL. But hence the reason called "Old".
It has ALWAYS been considered a History of Jewish people and also, of prophecies to come. I could see your concern, if you thought that. :)

My denomination worships Jesus and God. Jesus was a Jew, and His ushering in a new era, is what ultimately killed Him. Jesus was brought to the Earth for the sole purpose of a sacrifice, to take away all peoples sins. So, Jesus prophecy is ultimately fulfilled, by being arrested and dying on the Cross for his views.

We (Christians) are commanded by God (I think in Book of Corinthians) to do, as Jesus says to do, in his teachings.

When Jesus died, the curtain (that seperated Holy ordained men, from the front, where "common" people came in) in the Tabernacle (Temple) was physically torn from top to bottom, symbolizing that everyone had same access to God, instead of just a select few (priests), and that, the end of earthly man made miracles (ie: Moses parting the Red Sea), and also God would not talk, one on one, with earthly beings (as he used to) and so on. It was a level playing field for eveyone.

In short Jesus was really what one might consider a philosopher. His philosophy is love your fellow man no matter what, be kind always, do not judge, respect for your neighbor, empathy in general.

Obviously, Brightgoo can not say it all about the Bible in 4 sentences but Jesus literally "did not have a bad bone in his body" no matter what you did to him. Forgiveness always. :)

I have been meaning to add 2 points

1st Clodius, sounds like you should have thanked God, that Milan pedestal was put on properly


2nd Pzycho Sixx (Founding Fathers) You are right, and the Declaration of Independance was written on hemp for a reason, and Ben Franklin wore nothing but hemp clothes. Hemp/Mary Jane were have a fundamental place in Americas history; definately.

Where I grew up in Tenn, the Polks (one later became Pres) had these huge mansions from profits, where they grew nothing but hemp for miles and miles back in the early 1800's. They had a contract with US Navy for making all their hemp rope.

They (people back then) would smoke a blend of tobacco/jane in their cool, long stem clay pipes. And it was nowhere near as good as the shit P6 throws in his vaporizor ;)

The whole idea that God’s ultimate aim for mankind is that they pick the correct unfounded, dubious and unsupported ancient claim so he can eternally reward or roast them - who could easily provide undeniable and irrefutable evidence of his existence and of what religion is true, but instead keeps himself hidden and insures there is plenty of reasonable doubt , then makes the punishment for this disbelief obscenely excessive and cruel.

Ill give you 8/10 for Elephant Hurling mate ;)

@brightgoo

Thanks the the lesson on the bible, its quite interesting.

My point, and question is when people compare Islam to Christianity one of the main defences of Christianity is that it suits modern times. That its, dare i say, evolved? where as islam is still its old, out dates ways. Would you agree with this comment?

Another example of morality existing outside of the bible, and frankly slapping it in the face. The push for gay marriages in England. The government announced it will legalizes gay marriages. The fun bit is the church opposes, but the majority of people (all the top rated comments on all the news stories and everyone ive spoke too) simply think the church should shut up and go away. This is a moral decision, change that exists outside of the bible showing man can evolve morals based on rational thought.

im sure you will hit Sky Fairy Clodius . NOT

Very good insight gazz, thats why I love A/C is because of all the diversified perspectives. On same thoughts, I have even said that God "evolved" through the Bible. Beginning being a very hateful or mean (not putting up with any Shit) to the God we have now that is an all forgiveing God.

Brightgoo on homosexuality. I have dear friends and relatives that are such. Government wise, "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" meaning for me let the Gov decide, if I (Christian) try to chime in, it wouldnt help my point of Christianity being all forgiveing, so I say let the Gov rule the people in that aspect.

No its not fair for traditional marriages to have better tax brackets, so if Homosexuals really want to marry one another then its all them, ya know :)

0,o... that was some heavy talk about morals hehe...

Keep on going, nice read :)