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bobdina
10-29-2009, 07:44 PM
Air Force might eliminate mandatory PT
By Jennifer H. Svan and Mark Abramson, Stars and Stripes
Mideast edition, Friday, October 30, 2009


RAMSTEIN AIR BASE, Germany — Even as the Air Force prepares to toughen physical fitness standards for airmen, it’s proposing to do away with mandatory physical training.

That means commanders no longer would have to provide airmen at least 270 minutes per week to exercise during duty hours. But airmen would still have to be prepared to pass more stringent PT tests twice a year.

If approved, the Air Force would be the first of the military services to eliminate mandatory PT.

An internal audit last year found the Air Force’s fitness program did not promote year-round fitness. Thirty-five percent of airmen tested at 13 bases worldwide gained weight and recorded significant increases in abdominal circumference measurements within 60 days of taking their PT test, auditors reported.

To combat those problems, the new standards would include twice yearly, instead of annual, testing, a revised point system, fewer chances to fail before being discharged, and assessments conducted by civilian health experts, rather than fellow airmen.

But two months before they’re to be rolled out, the revised guidelines have yet to be signed by Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz. Air Force officials said a review of the guidelines delayed the expected September release of the instruction.

Airmen, however, are already sounding off about the possible elimination of mandatory PT. Some welcome the relaxed standards, while others worry that losing workout time during duty hours will make it tougher to pass the more stringent PT test.

Under current fitness guidance, squadron commanders must implement and maintain a unit or squadron PT program while also ensuring that all members are permitted up to 90 minutes of duty time for physical training three times a week.

The other services have similar guidelines. The Navy doesn’t mandate unit PT, but recommends that commanders give sailors at least three 60-minute workout sessions during duty hours each week, Navy spokeswoman Katie Suich said in an e-mail to Stars and Stripes.

In the Marine Corps, commanders must ensure their troops perform at least five 30-minute "combat conditioning sessions" each week, according to a Marine Corps spokesman, 2nd Lt. Brian Villiard.

The Army carves out the most time for mandatory physical training. A commander "in general" gives 1½ hours a day for first-line supervisors to conduct physical training during duty hours each week, according to an Army spokesman, Lt. Col. Lee Packnett.

Air Force officials say eliminating mandatory PT is intended to give commanders more leeway in designing and scheduling PT programs to meet their unit’s needs and mission.

"Commanders are highly encouraged to continue with the fitness program, but it’s not going to be mandatory," said Maj. Richelle Dowdell, an Air Force spokeswoman at the Pentagon.

Part of the reasoning behind the shift is the acknowledgement that commanders can make airmen attend PT but they can’t force someone to "put that effort forward," Dowdell said. It’s up to the individual what they get from a workout, and the Air Force thinks fitness should be the individual’s responsibility, she said.

But Air Force officials won’t go as far as to say the expected change will shift accountability for their airmen’s test scores away from commanders.

Last year’s audit found that commanders did not consistently allow individual physical fitness activity during duty hours, and that unit-based fitness programs did not effectively influence airmen to make fitness a year-round commitment.

Air Force officials at the Pentagon could not answer how commanders will be held accountable under the proposed guidelines but at least one wing commander has said he doesn’t expect unit PT to disappear.

"What leadership doesn’t want to happen is for people to make excuses for failing the PT test and say, ‘My boss didn’t let me have mandatory PT time,’ " Col. Giovanni Tuck, the 15th Airlift Wing commander at Hickam Air Force Base, Hawaii, said in a recent Air Force news release.

Tuck said he planned to let each unit determine "what is necessary to accomplish the mission," as it relates to physical training.

An 86th Airlift Wing spokesman said squadron commanders at Ramstein Air Base in Germany declined to be interviewed about their views on mandatory PT.

"They’re not willing to speculate on any changes," since the new instruction hasn’t been approved, Aaron Schoenfeld said Thursday.

Most of Ramstein’s larger squadrons, however, give their airmen time during the duty day to work out. One exception is the 86th Security Forces Squadron, whose members are instructed to work out prior to or after their shift. Only 1 percent of its airmen are on a remedial fitness plan, less than other squadrons with mandatory, duty-day PT, according to data provided by the wing.

Among some Ramstein airmen, the possible move away from mandatory PT is viewed with mixed opinions.

"I think if the standards are going to be tougher, there should be more time to do PT," said Staff Sgt. Marc Taggart, 27, an 86th Aircraft Maintenance Squadron avionics specialist from Tucson, Ariz.

Airman 1st Class Michael Yee, 23, a C-130 crew chief, thinks the Air Force should still give airmen time during the duty day to work out, but it should be a balance of unit PT and individual exercise.

"You should be fit all year round, I do agree with that," he said. But the one-workout-fits-all group mentality of unit PT isn’t always beneficial for airmen, he said.

The tougher proposed standards include testing airmen twice a year — instead of once — and giving commanders the authority to boot an airman from the service for two consecutive PT test failures. Right now, a discharge isn’t considered until an airman has four PT failures in a year.

"I think that is a pretty significant impact," said Maj. Alex Garcia, U.S. Air Forces in Europe fitness program consultant. "I think in the past folks thought if I fail a couple of times then I would get serious."

Some trials of the new standards at Air Force bases have indicated the failure rate could skyrocket

nastyleg
10-29-2009, 08:22 PM
fuck it why not eliminate all standards while we are at it.....if you think that an airman without his Sgt putting a boot in his ass will do the PT on his own is a huge mistake.

acf6
10-29-2009, 08:24 PM
fuck it why not eliminate all standards while we are at it.....if you think that an airman without his Sgt putting a boot in his ass will do the PT on his own is a huge mistake.

Agreed! some people need that little motivation to do the PT!!!

nastyleg
10-29-2009, 08:35 PM
like me goddamn it.....I have a SSG as a friend and we go running so yeah everyone needs help with their short comings.

SMR
10-30-2009, 02:22 AM
The Air Force has adopted the policy of more with less and the daily allotted fitness time removes personal that are required to perform day functions such as launch and recovery of aircraft
The mandatory fitness policy sounds good on paper but in reality dose not work
And was only enforced for the first week or so after the directive was issued

scoutsout80
10-30-2009, 11:04 AM
I will invest in Omar the Tent Maker of USAF uniforms

bobdina
10-30-2009, 11:23 AM
The Air Force has adopted the policy of more with less and the daily allotted fitness time removes personal that are required to perform day functions such as launch and recovery of aircraft
The mandatory fitness policy sounds good on paper but in reality dose not work
And was only enforced for the first week or so after the directive was issued
Not trying to be a dick here but in the Army Combat Avation brigades launch and recover helo's all day, in the Marines the Air wings launch and recover helo's. jets and ospreys just using those as an example and all do PT. And how many Airman on on Air Force base are physically involved in those tasks. This is what I don't understand you said it takes them away from there day functions, why not have PT before there day functions or after it?
We would do PT at 0600 till 0730 then take showers , chow and begin our day at 0900 and clean weapons, clean gear go to the range and so on. When we were on reverse cycles everything was done at night including PT.Christ we would do PT while deployed.If there was something going on during PT time it was scheduled for later that day. Don't get me wrong I hated every minute of it, but I think in today's fight it's not smart not to do mandatory PT. Before everyone was so deployed I could see not doing mandatory PT for certain unit's, but christ you have to be in pretty good shape not to become a heat causality when deployed now and actually doing work. I would think that would especially be true for guy's launching and arming planes in Iraq and in Afghanistan before the winter kicked in. And here is the real reason the Air Force needs mandatory PT, it's new harder PT test-Teed off about the PT test? Scratching your head over why there’s still a waist measurement? Or how come your run time counts six times more than your pushup score?

You’re not alone.

Complaints and questions are still pouring into the Air Force, even though the service unveiled the new standards five months ago.

The man with the answers is Neal Baumgartner, a retired Air Force major and exercise physiologist now working as a civilian with the 342nd Training Squadron at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas.

Baumgartner helped design the Air Force’s “Fit to Fight” fitness program in 2003 and he’s the one who two top leaders —Maj. Gen. Darrell Jones, director of force management policy, and former Chief Master Sgt. of the Air Force Rodney McKinley — turned to when they wanted to revamp the service’s PT test.

Scheduled to go into effect Jan. 1, the test is what service leaders tout as the only one in the military based on scientific research — done by Baumgartner. The Army, Navy and Marine Corps based their tests on normative standards, or the averages from past results.

Baumgartner answered some of the questions airmen still have for Air Force Times, but first he wanted to clear up the misconception that the service’s PT test measures an airman’s ability to perform his job. It doesn’t.

“[The Air Force’s fitness test] measures your health,” he said. “We are providing a standard that will test the forces fitness and health levels that should reduce health care costs and increase duty time.”

The new PT test even correlates an airmen’s run time and body composition with a low, moderate or high health risk.see more http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/10/airforce_pt_science_102609w/

SMR
10-30-2009, 06:06 PM
The policy is to provide airmen at least 270 minutes per week to exercise during duty hours.
Do to manning are average day was 14.5 hours 6 days a week with no lunch brake if you add 1 hour of pt and our day is bumped to 15.5 hours
To increase moral and decrease the suicide and dui rate pt was dropped

acf6
10-30-2009, 07:31 PM
Not trying to disagree with ya but from my experience PT does more then just keep you in shape! It teaches discipline and team building. I know that everybody hates it but it works and if you do away with mandatory PT people get the perception that if they don't have to do PT then they can start to slack in other areas. As for taking away from duties PT should be included in your daily duties! It doesn't have to be everyday! I worked out for 45min 3 days a week and stayed in shape without a problem. We had no mandatory PT in the reserves and after two yrs of many failed tests they started mandatory PT and it motivated everyone and sailors that flunked out many times started passing the test. And we only did it one weekend a month!!

SMR
10-30-2009, 07:51 PM
I agree pt is very important to keeping a unit combat ready
But it also relies on the ability of the individual to know when to put down the cheeseburger and eat a salad!
I have put boot to ass over fitness before and will again all I am saying is mandatory pt during the duty day isn’t the best answer for everybody

Sixx
11-03-2009, 11:43 PM
Mandatory PT in my unit failed due to manning and high OPS tempo.

PT in the USAF is a joke.....always has been. They cant seem to get their shit together and get with the program....at least adopt other branches PT programs or something. The recent and current programs are devised by desk riders looking for performance report bullets.

I have seen people fail the PT test 4-5 times in a row and still get promoted and was able to re-enlist etc.


And don't get me started on the old USAF stationary bike test
When I weighed 160lbs and was fit as hell I could not pass that bike test.....However my fat out of shape 300lbs supervisor passed it every time, Which pissed me off bad. I wanted to take those bastards to the track and show them what's up.

nastyleg
11-03-2009, 11:47 PM
Mandatory PT in my unit failed due to manning and high OPS tempo.

PT in the USAF is a joke.....always has been. They cant seem to get their shit together and get with the program....at least adopt other branches PT programs or something. The recent and current programs are devised by desk riders looking for performance report bullets.

I have seen people fail the PT test 4-5 times in a row and still get promoted and was able to re-enlist etc.

Why the AF does not adopt the Army's PT schedule is odd always thought it was. PT before you work then go to work would not kill an airmen...or me for that matter HAHA awww I am out of shape but lost 8lbs in one month. Not bad but still a shit ton to go.

Sixx
11-04-2009, 04:46 PM
Why the AF does not adopt the Army's PT schedule is odd always thought it was. PT before you work then go to work would not kill an airmen...or me for that matter HAHA awww I am out of shape but lost 8lbs in one month. Not bad but still a shit ton to go.

Does most units in the Army still have Formation in the mornings? And also....Is PT conducted or before or after Formation?

In my job we had to be at our squadron building at 0345, We hit the armory at 0400 to get armed, Guardmount/Briefing was done at 0430 and was on the road at 0500. That poses a problem to do PT because of the required "rest" for the mission. (Stateside)

But also during our 2 training days during the work cycle we were mandated by the Commander to do PT....but due to the lack of integrity amongst flight leadership our PT rarely lasted 20 minutes and was a joke...at your own pace circuit training.

The only time we ever did PT as a formation was in training schools...which was cool, But once your school was over it was back to the USAF reality.

I also witness the good ol' boy system being used during USAF PT tests, If you were a gopher and ass-kisser you aced the PT test with an inflated score(Same thing with enlisted performance reports)...which is bullshit. And our leadership always preached about the USAF Core Values....so much for that.

bobdina
11-04-2009, 05:10 PM
Does most units in the Army still have Formation in the mornings? And also....Is PT conducted or before or after Formation?

In my job we had to be at our squadron building at 0345, We hit the armory at 0400 to get armed, Guardmount/Briefing was done at 0430 and was on the road at 0500. That poses a problem to do PT because of the required "rest" for the mission. (Stateside)

But also during our 2 training days during the work cycle we were mandated by the Commander to do PT....but due to the lack of integrity amongst flight leadership our PT rarely lasted 20 minutes and was a joke...at your own pace circuit training.

The only time we ever did PT as a formation was in training schools...which was cool, But once your school was over it was back to the USAF reality.

I also witness the good ol' boy system being used during USAF PT tests, If you were a gopher and ass-kisser you aced the PT test with an inflated score(Same thing with enlisted performance reports)...which is bullshit. And our leadership always preached about the USAF Core Values....so much for that.

I can tell you the units I was in had PT formation at 0545 did pt as a formation for 1 1/2 to 2 hours. (of course not straight ,changing positions, stretching and so on). If there was something going on in the AM where PT couldn't be done it was scheduled for the last thing of that day(whenever that happened to be truly sucked) I have no idea when MP's did theirs though because sometimes during Battalion runs we would see them blocking traffic in their cars. I can only speak of Infantry units I was in.But we always did PT in formation. I don't know what rest for the mission is, is it an MP thing so your rested for your road patrol duties,If that's the case I totally agree with it. I know we didn't have it stateside but as I said if it's for MP's or flyboys I do agree with it.

Sixx
11-04-2009, 06:36 PM
I can tell you the units I was in had PT formation at 0545 did pt as a formation for 1 1/2 to 2 hours. (of course not straight ,changing positions, stretching and so on). If there was something going on in the AM where PT couldn't be done it was scheduled for the last thing of that day(whenever that happened to be truly sucked) I have no idea when MP's did theirs though because sometimes during Battalion runs we would see them blocking traffic in their cars. I can only speak of Infantry units I was in.But we always did PT in formation. I don't know what rest for the mission is, is it an MP thing so your rested for your road patrol duties,If that's the case I totally agree with it. I know we didn't have it stateside but as I said if it's for MP's or flyboys I do agree with it.

I'm sorry, I should have explained it....rest or Crew Rest System is the amount of "down time" required for members doing sensitive or critical work vital to national security, I believe the system was originally designed for Aviators...but other Air Force specialties use it now as well.

Crew Rest is usually 8-12 hours of mandatory uninterrupted rest......you cannot be called in to do anything during that time, Unless it's an real-world emergency. It varies depending on the squadron and the mission.

bobdina
11-04-2009, 09:32 PM
I'm sorry, I should have explained it....rest or Crew Rest System is the amount of "down time" required for members doing sensitive or critical work vital to national security, I believe the system was originally designed for Aviators...but other Air Force specialties use it now as well.

Crew Rest is usually 8-12 hours of mandatory uninterrupted rest......you cannot be called in to do anything during that time, Unless it's an real-world emergency. It varies depending on the squadron and the mission.

Then I totally agree you do PT when time permits if thats on your on then so be it

joedan
11-04-2009, 10:08 PM
Will dresses become part of the basic issue now? :nono:

nastyleg
11-04-2009, 11:01 PM
Does most units in the Army still have Formation in the mornings? And also....Is PT conducted or before or after Formation?

In my job we had to be at our squadron building at 0345, We hit the armory at 0400 to get armed, Guardmount/Briefing was done at 0430 and was on the road at 0500. That poses a problem to do PT because of the required "rest" for the mission. (Stateside)

But also during our 2 training days during the work cycle we were mandated by the Commander to do PT....but due to the lack of integrity amongst flight leadership our PT rarely lasted 20 minutes and was a joke...at your own pace circuit training.

The only time we ever did PT as a formation was in training schools...which was cool, But once your school was over it was back to the USAF reality.

I also witness the good ol' boy system being used during USAF PT tests, If you were a gopher and ass-kisser you aced the PT test with an inflated score(Same thing with enlisted performance reports)...which is bullshit. And our leadership always preached about the USAF Core Values....so much for that.

when i left infantry (regret it now) we got up at 530 PT formation @6 Platoon PT for no less than an hour except on Wed that was reserved for combatives. MP's on post were on a 12/24 hour cycle. 12 on 24 off. in that 24hr period they had to conduct PT on own but they were held to the same PT standards. If you fail 3 times in a row on record APFT then you were kicked out. in the 12 hour work day they were tasked to do road guard duty and then normal L&O operations. The good ol' boy system was in play but they counted bad push ups and sit ups as for the run there was no way around it. CO at the start and Top at the turn around point. Height and weight was done by the XO and PSG's. LT's had the honor of meat gazer duty. SQL and TML were not immune to anything envolving the APFT. CO had a standing order of TML on up no less than 80% on APFT while the "joes" had to maintain 70%.

Sixx
11-05-2009, 12:33 AM
when i left infantry (regret it now) we got up at 530 PT formation @6 Platoon PT for no less than an hour except on Wed that was reserved for combatives. MP's on post were on a 12/24 hour cycle. 12 on 24 off. in that 24hr period they had to conduct PT on own but they were held to the same PT standards. If you fail 3 times in a row on record APFT then you were kicked out. in the 12 hour work day they were tasked to do road guard duty and then normal L&O operations. The good ol' boy system was in play but they counted bad push ups and sit ups as for the run there was no way around it. CO at the start and Top at the turn around point. Height and weight was done by the XO and PSG's. LT's had the honor of meat gazer duty. SQL and TML were not immune to anything envolving the APFT. CO had a standing order of TML on up no less than 80% on APFT while the "joes" had to maintain 70%.

Cool, Thanks for the info....

LT's & Meat gazer duty...heheh