US judge halts ban on gay soldiers

[gazzthompson]

http://news.uk.msn.com/world/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=154964105

[Sixx]

http://news.uk.msn.com/world/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=154964105

Looks like all the U.S. airsofters are going to be hitting up the recruiting stations soon huh gazz?

hehe J/K :P

I hope they make that judge pay for all the private showers that will be needed.
Fools....

[Scott]

im sorry have i missed something here?

whats wrong with being gay? its entirely upto individuals what sexuality they want to have, whether its straight/gay or bisexual.

what can a straight soldier do that a gay one cannot? aslong as the soldiers/recruits go by the rules and focus then why shouldn't they be allowed?

i can udnerstand it might cause abit of a stir during shower times.... but damm if people in the army/marines cannot be mature about it then how did they get into the army/marines in the first place? discipline comes to mind :)
i know some of you will disagree but personally i think its abit much.

and no you fools im not gay.... i just respect peoples sexuality.

[Sixx]

That is not the issue.
The issue is that MAJORITY of the military are against it and IT will cause serious issues.
They will need private showers etc to accommodate straight people.. Nobody ever thinks about costs and logistical issues before passing shit.
I cannot take a shower with the female species that I'm attracted to, then why can a gay guy attracted to males take showers with other males?


Americans are different than Europeans when it comes to this. Has nothing to do with maturity or discipline.
People have been assaulted and murdered in the military for the slightest hint of being gay.

Think I'm full of shit?

Ask a Vet.

I'm sure Mickdonald's will leave a comment.

[gazzthompson]

Looks like all the U.S. airsofters are going to be hitting up the recruiting stations soon huh gazz?


http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff132/dddouble/Misc/fry-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

[MickDonalds]

That is not the issue.
The issue is that MAJORITY of the military are against it and IT will cause serious issues.
They will need private showers etc to accommodate straight people.. Nobody ever thinks about costs and logistical issues before passing shit.
I cannot take a shower with the female species that I'm attracted to, then why can a gay guy attracted to males take showers with other males?


Americans are different than Europeans when it comes to this. Has nothing to do with maturity or discipline.
People have been assaulted and murdered in the military for the slightest hint of being gay.

Think I'm full of shit?

Ask a Vet.

I'm sure Mickdonald's will leave a comment.

You're exactly right. Most of us have absolutely no problems with gays. If that's your business, then fine. Keep it behind closed doors, the same as I would with my sexuality with women.

However, nobody wants to think of the logistical cost (BILLIONS) that it's going to take to change around every single barracks and facility so that everyone is comfortable. It would be discrimination if a heterosexual male were forced to openly shower with a gay male, and not be able to shower with a female. That would basically amount to reverse favoritism on behalf of the gays. You would be accomidating their needs and desires (to shower openly with naked men) but would be denying straight males of their needs and desires (privacy).

Then comes the discipline issue. If a guy is gay and is just a run-of the mill, blue collar "joe" type of guy that acts pretty normal but prefers men, okay, so what? But what if you have a Command Sergeant Major prancing around in front of an entire brigade giddily laughing and carrying himself like a 14 year old freshman girl on prom night? I'm sorry, but acting like Carson from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, isn't "Military Bearing" and would not only have a negative morale consequence on our own force, it would degrade our working partnerships with other nation's militaries. Flaunting your sexuality and acting like a teenage princess isn't going to get you anywhere when you're in a direct leadership or advisory role in the Middle East or Africa.

DADT works just fine. if it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT! it's that easy.

[Scott]

Thanks for the input Sixx, yes the 2 countries are completely different over the "gay" issue regarding army.... i now realise it would be a very big problem and a bill which is very unnceccary at these hard times.




DADT works just fine. if it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT! it's that easy. You are 100% Correct on that m8, i now both agree with you, you have swayed my mind, so now i ask... WTF is the judge thinking?

[gazzthompson]

On the flip side,

Those who use the 'gay people are a distraction' etc arguments are, in my view, directly saying that the US forces are as a whole less mature then those of other nations where gays are allowed to serve without restriction; if US soldiers are distracted by having gay colleagues, then they lack the maturity of their allies who have no problem with it.

[Sixx]

He was looking for popularity. (Judge) Me thinks.

I do believe we need change to in order to put discrimination issues behind us.
However it needs to be thought out. You cannot just send one mass email to military members stating that you are allowed to serve while openly gay.

It will some-what work eventually....just as the quality for women, blacks etc in the U.S. Military(discrimination of all types still occur). It will take a lot of work to get there.

Imagine all the public display of affection issues....that will happen.

[Sixx]

On the flip side,

Those who use the 'gay people are a distraction' etc arguments are, in my view, directly saying that the US forces are as a whole less mature then those of other nations where gays are allowed to serve without restriction; if US soldiers are distracted by having gay colleagues, then they lack the maturity of their allies who have no problem with it.

Distraction is not the issue... and who says the allies are cool with open gays? The government dictates policies.......just because a law is in place does not mean it is respected and everyone is fine with it.

Countries that allow gays to openly serve:
Australia
Austria
Bahamas
Belgium
Canada
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Lithuania
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Slovenia
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
UK
Uruguay


Those countries allow it. I do not know how easy the transition was or is.....I do not know if assaults on gays in the military are in issue either nowadays.




However there will be issues in the U.S. military.....you can count on that.

[MickDonalds]

On the flip side,

Those who use the 'gay people are a distraction' etc arguments are, in my view, directly saying that the US forces are as a whole less mature then those of other nations where gays are allowed to serve without restriction; if US soldiers are distracted by having gay colleagues, then they lack the maturity of their allies who have no problem with it.

We lack maturity, yet we are able to figure out what works best for us in every single operational capacity, and we can OBLITERATE any nation on earth....

Hmm....I'll stick with my "immaturity" over being "Progressive" anyday.


The big issue isn't tolerance. As a country, we're LIGHT YEARS ahead of even some of our "Progressive" :roleyes: allies that like to try and hold that over our heads. The main, underlying issue is Behavior. When the code of discipline is challenged constantly because somebody get offended, then the overall fighting ability of the force is degraded. The priority of our forces is to offensively win on foreign soil. If we cared about catering to everybody's individual needs, we'd be a pathetic force, incapable of really doing anything (like most of Europe).

[gazzthompson]

We lack maturity, yet we are able to figure out what works best for us in every single operational capacity, and we can OBLITERATE any nation on earth....

Hmm....I'll stick with my "immaturity" over being "Progressive" anyday.


The big issue isn't tolerance. As a country, we're LIGHT YEARS ahead of even some of our "Progressive" :roleyes: allies that like to try and hold that over our heads. The main, underlying issue is Behavior. When the code of discipline is challenged constantly because somebody get offended, then the overall fighting ability of the force is degraded. The priority of our forces is to offensively win on foreign soil. If we cared about catering to everybody's individual needs, we'd be a pathetic force, incapable of really doing anything (like most of Europe).

Your ability of being able to "OBLITERATE any nation on earth...." has very little to do with maturity.

Back on topic, You speak of degrading the overall fighting force. Well what about the degrade of the fighting force because of gays being removed?

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1707545,00.html


About 12,000 service members have been booted from the military since the law took effect, including dozens of Arabic speakers whose skills are particularly prized by the military since the advent of the war on terror.


Would this have not had a very real, and obvious effect on the military ?

[gutro]

time will cure all.....

Gays will have a rough go until they earn their stripes (so to speak). The first generation of gays will (no pun intended) get it hard. They will be looked down upon and picked on. However, once they start proving that they can fight and do their job properly, by the 2nd or 3rd generation of gays, I think things will start to smooth out.

As for separate showers, i doubt the military will accommodate. One's sexual orientation will not be required to be known. Thus it will not be possible to find out if they are gay unless they come out to other troops. I've known a couple gay/lesbian people in my day (no I'm not gay), but they seem to have better control over their urges than straight guys do with women. Probably because they have spent so much time trying to hide the fact that they are gay.

[MickDonalds]

Your ability of being able to "OBLITERATE any nation on earth...." has very little to do with maturity.

Back on topic, You speak of degrading the overall fighting force. Well what about the degrade of the fighting force because of gays being removed?

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1707545,00.html



Would this have not had a very real, and obvious effect on the military ?

You speak of "maturity" as if it's a behavioral issue and not a "cultural norm", in which case it is not in the US. Just because Spain lets Gays openly serve doesn't mean they're more "mature". Your word choice of "mature" is poor, at best.

As for your link...let's see here...

12,000 get booted out, and we have an overall force of over 2,000,000 personnel in combined branches. 12,000 is "chump change" to us. Booting a few doesn't hurt our forces. I can back that up with countless facts and statistics about how much more superior our military currently is compared to some backwater Euro country that lets gays openly serve. If we boot out an infinitesimal fraction, it's not going to hurt our force. As for the Arabic Speaker alibi, that means piss all, because we've hired thousands upon thousands of Arabic speaking civilians to cover down. But don't take my word for it...After all, I've only lived in an Arabic country for 3 years and dealt with DOD employees on an everday basis that speak Arabic....

[Sixx]

Gazz, my last year in the military......I booted at least 7 or so people. The year before that I aided in the removal of 5 people.
My unit was cranking at least as a minimum of 10 people a month out the door. My unit had 5 gays booted.

If you fail to ADAPT...you are out on your ass.
This is the Military not wal-mart. No room for bullshit, no room for error.

Bodies come and go. There will be someone else filling the shoes of the others that could not make it.